He Believed the Islamic Tradition Was Worthless | Scientist turned Theologian | Shoaib Ahmed Malik

Asalamualaykum While most of the comments online have been positive there was some criticisms of the podcast I wanted to address. Firstly duaat should welcome criticisms and they have to make sure they address valid concerns raised by well meaning muslims. I have invited shoaib previously on my channel and we agree and disagree on some matters. Below are a few clear ones. My approach is to challenge Darwinism, his is to ask if it is true then what can a Ghazalian Sunni framework allow. He challenges ID, I am pro ID. I have always been open to subscribe human exceptionalism and creationism, he is open to adamic exceptionalism as well as these but we both reject no exceptions. To be clear I reject Adamic exceptionalism but I don't challenge him on the podcast, from the beginning I planned to challenge him on ID as that's my main area of interest. On adamic exceptionalism there was some criticism which I sent him and I also asked another Ghalazian Scholar of his opinion. True I didn't push back on that view but it doesn't automatically mean I subscribe to it either. Me and Shoaib can discuss this point in the future. I grant he is the expert on what a Ghalazian Sunni approach would entail and has support and criticism for that. I only stuck to the fact that we both reject Adam having any parents and reject no exceptions. That is a super important point of convergence. there is a variant of the Adamic exception view which doesn't allow interbreeding with Neanderthals but rather says Adamic line goes way back over 750k and therefore Neanderthals are not a different species but are of the same tree. As a side point Neanderthals were not brutes or animals but pretty sophisticated, this is a view we can discuss in the future insha'Allah. I do not think some of the points raised online are valid namely calling Shoaib a heretic and saying I shouldn't give him platform. This is absurd, i have known him for years he can change his opinion and has done in the past, I am sure he can change his opinion on Adamic exceptionalism if it can be shown to be a theoretical heresy. Lastly he never says what he believes, only what he is open to. He is open to creationism as well, doesn't mean he actually believes in it. Shoaib is a friend and someone i believe who sincere to the cause of Islam. If he is wrong he will change his opinion without hesitation insha'Allah As Muslims we can amicably disagree but we shouldn't create an environment to normalise heretical beliefs and I will be glad to take this video down if it does that. Atm I think this video is fine. One last thing I want to say and I believe this point is the most important point. Shoaib is not a modernist but a traditionalist. Here is the proof that is evident throughout his career, modernists have tried to make Islam compatible with Darwinism and have tried to show Adam AS has evolutionary ancestors. Shoaib has done more work than anyone else to absolutely debunk this idea! He has shown it is impossible for a Muslim to believe this. Additionally modernists have been unchallenged academically on their use of the argument that early Muslims accepted evolutionary ancestors, he proved that the early Muslims did not at all subscribe to this idea. He took away the main tool used by modernists to challenge the Quranic Adamic story. So he is definitely not a modernist. See paper below: philpapers.org/rec/AHMOTN If you disagree with what I said please comment below I could be wrong and Allah knows best

Fascinating!

Not a theologian or a scientist myself. But I too used to think Islamic tradition was worthless, now i know how wrong i was. May Allah show mercy on me.

For those wondering, the author mentioned at 50:06 might've been 'E.V.R Kojonen'

The podcast setup we didn't know we needed. Props. Mabrook on the setup and jzk to both of your efforts my dear brothers.

Great discussion! MashaAllah I loved Dr Shoaibs book as well!

What an amazing podcast and because of this discussion I'm interested in reading that book.

Loved the convo, love to Dr Shoaib and subbor

this brother is amazing, i would love to listen to him much much more, can you make more ep with him if he has time OR can somebody link some of his lectures if he has any and books that he has. jazakum Allah khair

Mashallah looking forward to this

Very nice convo. May Allah bless you two

Love the studio setup ,,it's fantastic

AlahumaBarik Was looking forward to this ❤️👍

Thank You for this episode Subboor. We need this brother on more episodes. I’m a layman who struggled to understand the conversation but I need to see more conversations with this brother please.

I really was thinking about the scientifical arguments that the scholars use to prove quran because it's like using their work(atheist) to prove yours but their work is already on a probabilistic frame work so it's not a valid argument to build up from it I feel like it's more for muslims that have weak imaan not for atheist that know actually how science work But the contingency argument and the causality argument does hold their ground as the strongest Guys thanks for real this was an enjoyment to my ears بارك الله فيكم اخوتي في الاسلام❤

We need more Muslim high achievers like saboor and Dr shoaib

Happy to see this episode. It speaks to me volumes. I am grateful that someone actually followed into the rabbithole of evolution and our theology from Ghazzalian perspective and came up with a critical framework. I am also happy he criticizes Nidhal Gassoum's views. When I was reading his Islam's Quantum question I was rejecting some of his approaches right away. As a scientist myself, I am very much in line with "scientific approach". However some of the assertions of the materialist philosophy of science does not gel 100% with Islamic worldview. It's important for us to come up with our own philosophy of science starting from Islamic theology. Meanwhile I am aware that theology stated in the earlier generations may not be the final word on the Quranic worldview. For example, relativity has certainly shifted the paradigm when it comes to understanding the time and space. Relativity may not be the final word either. However it opened a door to the new possibility of interpretation.

i just broadened my horizons a little, thank you جزاكما الله خيرا كثيرا

Wonderful discussion. You should have discussions like this in a setting like this with Dr. Shoaib and other guests often. Even though I respectfully disagree with Dr. Shoaib on Design being weak philosophically but strong intuitively, there are underlying ontological and epistemological assumptions about intuition and its relationship to the external world, I believe there can be Philosophically valid and philosophically sound arguments from design with multiple propositions with premises that necessarily conclude design based on the validity of those premises, I respect Dr. Shoaib for the enormous work he has done and continues to do so. May Allah bless him and increase him in beneficial knowledge. Aameen

Both of u have fulfilled my wish. Thanks. It means we will accept both sides. Please make this in Urdu language so that sub continents people may understand.