What Actually Counts as "Doom Music"?

Thank you all for responding and sharing your thoughts! You all made some excellent points here, and it's cool to be able to see what you guys think about stuff like this. For the record, I really don't think there is any right or wrong answer, and reading your comments got me thinking in new ways about this topic that had been on my mind for a bit. It was really fun to hear from you, and there'll definitely be more discussion-type videos like this in the future, so stay tuned!

I still stand by my argument that if a song is used in Doom which is originally from another source, I won't count it as Doom music.

I think its chill for you to cover other old fps music in a smaller series, if you wanted to. Interesting topic. I'd also enjoy seeing what makes a successful Doom tune. Like, what goes into that process to make something "Doom music", at least compared to the original soundtracks/popular fan music.

i agree that midis from other sources shouldn't be classified as doom music. they absolutely fit doom well and i don't think people Shouldn't use them, but i think classifying them as doom midis kinda devalues the original context those midis were made in. like kevin schilder composed the heretic soundtrack specifically for that game's dark fantasy setting, lee jackson and bobby prince composed ROTT's ost to fit the game's unique tone, etc etc. lumping them in with music specifically composed to fit doom maps muddies that, and in a way it kinda devalues midi music as a medium since it implies they should Only be composed to fit doom

A wise choice! For the record, association is a very strong thing, and there are definitely songs from other games or sources that I associate much more strongly with Doom than their original appearances (like pretty much anything from Hexen or Heretic). Especially among other 90s FPS games, there's a distinct overlap - these games are family in many ways. In that regard, I wouldn't fuss about someone putting music from all kinds of different sources under the "Doom Music" umbrella. But songs from professionally-released games have their own audiences outside of Doom, and they can be appreciated anywhere. Community-made Doom midis are most likely going to remain within the community, because they have no non-Doom original work for people to make associations to, so when curating a channel based on appreciation for "Doom Community midis", it makes the most sense to cover the truly community-created stuff - the stuff you can't find anywhere else. :) Good luck on future videos!

i like the thoughts and discussions; thank you! If a song was made specifically for a doom game or wad (whether bobby prince or "StewBoy" Rynn, J Paddock, etc ), I think it unequivocally is "Doom Music". Songs from elsewhere, but happening to be in a doom game/wad, well, I agree with you Ray that perhaps it might not merit a full analysis/deepdive on this youtube channel, but if the music is good, maybe a mention of it to appreciate it and its inclusion in a doom wad/game. Personally, the music that inspired the original doom music (NIN, Pantera, etc and the music/songs/artists/groups/bands that inspired Bobby Prince) I think deserves special mention at the very least and maybe could be considered as "Doom Music" cause it feels special in the inspirational role it has played in Doom music history :)

If I hear SC-55, I hear doom.

I definitely think that "Doom Music" has evolved to refer to a type of evocative, looping General MIDI music. There is some intangible set of variables that make something "Doom Music" as opposed to just MIDI music.

SHIT, about time LBF finally addresses the question I have been having ever since all of the MIDI's and The Phobos Amphitheater started question 🙃

I agree with you. I feel like including music not originally for Doom mods as Doom music cheapens both the original context of the music as well as the ample original music in the Doom community. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be used, but they don’t seem particularly interesting to talk about in the context of Doom. If you wanted to talk about non-Doom music, I’d be all for that, as ROTT and Duke Nukem 3D and other games have some very cool soundtracks. I just feel like the context matters.

To give some points to the yes side of the question: using MIDI or MIDIfied music from other sources has been a standard since the early and mid 90s, where a lot of PWADs used Marilyn Manson or Nirvana MIDIs because people would like to hear something other than At Doom's Gate or Running From Evil every time they load a new level, so I don't see why we should now not consider that Doom music, especially since that tactic has lead to inspired choices like Scythe 2 MAP20 (Compression of Time, originally from Final Fantasy 8) or Swim With The Whales MAP03 (Water World, originally from Donkey Country 3) While I understanding highlighting community-made effort, I think scouring other games and medias to bring a more eclectic taste to a WAD's sound can heighten the quality of its experience, so I believe that no matter from where, if you brought a song that has enhanced the experience of a level for anyone that plays it, that should be considered Doom music

Good news, if you hold the hard line and start running out of ideas you have a wealth of untapped material for later :) I think reference or clip shows might be a good way to touch on the "not written for Doom" content without the detailed analysis you've put into previous episodes. Whatever you choose, I'm here for it!

At the end of the day, this seems more like using the same term to refer to two different concepts, as opposed to an actual disagreement. "Music in Doom" and "Music in Doom, made for Doom" are both perfectly fine interpretations of the term "Doom Music". According to some definitions of the word "continent", Europe and Asia are considered separate. Others refer to a unified Eurasia. Depending on the context, one can choose one definition over the other, but neither is right or wrong. Focusing mainly on music made for Doom seems to be most in the spirit of the channel, but I think videos about music not originally from Doom could be interesting too. Sometimes a piece of music becomes strongly identified with media it wasn't originally written for. As a tired non-Doom example, Also Sprach Zarathustra may not be film music per se, but you can still analyse its usage in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Awesome stuff! (Would love for you to investigate other 90s fps soundtracks COUGH COUGH Blood) 😉

Duke Nukem 3D: Yes (particularly for tech bases and urban maps). Blood: Definitely yes (while a bit different, this really fits Doom in particular). Heretic/Hexen: Somewhat (fits Hell themed maps). Rise of the Triad: No (but there's no arguing ROTT music is VERY based and very fun to Doom to!!). My criteria is how well these songs mesh with the original Doom midis. At the end of the day, they are all made for first person shooters. Of course this is subjective. Now if we're talking about what is considered community made music (which is what most people play anyways), then Rise of The Triad definitely fits.

I'm not sure how to answer that question. However, one thing I'm sure is that I wouldn't mind at all if you included "external source" Doom midis in your analysis. Maybe it would be a bit strange if you did an entire video about a single midi of this category, but those where you explain music theory and use midis as examples, I think it would be perfectly fine, specially if you think it's a useful or interesting example. Also, selecting midis to fit your map is a skill of its own, I think. Recently, I played a wad called Vae Victus II and it had such an awesome music selection, from other games and such. So I guess my opinion is that those external midis do count. They are already part of Doom's history, in a way, although music made by the Doom community should be valued more. Makes sense?

There is no doubt any Soundtrack or MIDI outside the source of Doom fits into Doom because if we think about about it, Doom has reached to a point now to where it is way more accessible to all of us. There is one catch though when it comes to the Outside the Source MIDIs and that is Doom should have an appropriate theme, map layouts and Gameplay to suit the particular MIDI. If not, then putting any of the MIDIs of Blood, Duke Nukem 3D, Heretic, Hexen, etc in a random map, with a random theme would not suit at all

"Doom music" to me will always be the original soundtrack plus community-created stuff and putting music from other games under the umbrella strikes me as pretty odd. Like there's no reason (artistically speaking) why music from other games can't be used - many WADs have done so to great effect, and specifically for this channel that's not even something I think you need to actively avoid*, but, it's not "Doom music", and I think counting it as such either complicates the term or loses its meaning, because at this point the list of classic video game soundtracks that HAVEN'T ever appeared in Doom at some point in the last 30 years is probably very short. * While I understand it's outside the channel's current scope I could totally see an episode discussing music from another source and comparing how it was used originally vs how Doom map(s) have reinterpreted it

The thing is, Doom community has been, for most of its lifespan, an online community and online communities typically do not share the same values as commercial game studios. It exists because DOOM and because some people stuck with DOOM to varying degrees and didn't abandon it completely for more advanced games, unlike what 90s naysayers said. I believe it is very valuable to document and shine spotlight on free things people made in their spare time for each other. Though it is OK to make an exception now and then- like Rise of The Triad! I really want to see a more learned musician and their comment section finally break down those tracks for me.

To me it's not about "music that has at some point been included in a random Doom wad" It's that Duke Nukem 3D, Heretic, etc. practically ARE fancy Doom clones? And they released at around the same time, inhabit the same culture, with very similar technical limitations, and even with shared composers