positive masculinity is overrated

I absolutely loathe that we default to Hollywood stars and celebrities for role models.

The thing about Rocky is that he's not suppose to be an "Alpha male". The movie always paints him as an imperfect man down on his luck, but also a man working to the bone to improve. What was said in the film Rocky Balboa, perfectly summarizes what Rocky is all about. Especially in the first movie: "it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done." Most men can never relate to Rocky's unique experiences, but what is relatable is the complete helplesslness, stress, and odysseistic hurdles that men face. And it can come in many forms like work, family, school, personal health. Anything in life, you name it. Any man who uses this movie as a testament to "you're not a real man, if you're not Rocky" is completely ridiculous. Rocky is all of us in some form or another.

Don't pick Rocky as an example if you never seen it(which I must assume if you got it so wrong). He's basically the antithesis of what you portray him as but actually what you're advocating for.

You should rewatch Rocky 1. He is cripplingly insecure, socially graceless and a constant loser in the film. He even loses the final fight to Apollo Creed. He is exploited by the mob and promoters and is damaged by their exploitation, physically and emotionally. His struggle in the film isn't becoming a great boxer, it is having self respect. I think the message that men in subordinate positions in society can have self respect is a valuable one, but I do want to point out that the race politics of the film are pretty rough.

Healthy masculinity, healthy femininity = being a good person!

What entertains me is the idea of men in the 1700s adjusting their wigs, putting on their makeup and high heels whilst ranting that “men aren’t men anymore” Oh how the tables have turned.

Rocky is about a lower class man who is very empathetic, kind and wants connection with others working hard to overcome horrific poverty and have a better life. I really recommend watching movies before you talk about them.

6:53 With all due respect you have never watched Rocky he is a very positive masculinity figure he is caring not just a brute and his story is about overcoming his own situation not by crushing others but by bettering himself

I disagree with giving “fem” and ”masc” qualities beyond outward appearances. Being “caring” shouldn’t be “fem”. It’s a state of being and shouldn’t be “gendered”. I see “toxic” masculinity and “toxic” femininity as being a sh!t person and then using your gender as an excuse. To be “healthy” fem/masc you need to be a good, balanced person (or actively trying to be) and that’s it.

You need to watch Rocky again because it seems you didn't get it. Rocky is a dirt poor tender guy that is reaching for love. Boxing is the set, is the representation of that battle for love and life that poor poeple go thru every day. It is amazing to me how it is so easy for poeple to talk about everything BUT class.

Not to diminish anything that's been said here but it's also worth discussing the role women play in reinforcing harmful stereotypes about masculinity. Calling certain behaviours "gay" or "feminine traits", or even calling regular ways of expressing emotion or vulnerability "red flags" are arguably more damaging to a man than his mate telling him to harden up.

I say this as a straight guy, but I feel we're just waaaaay too hemmed in from both the leftists ("masculinity is toxic!") and the rightists ("Be a real man, pussy!"). I just want to live a nice life. I want to play my video games, go hiking on weekends, read my books, date a nice (preferably attractive and feminine) girl, and have job that doesn't treat me like shit. I want to be able to express myself emotionally. Talk about the things that frustrate me, express my love, my fear, my frustrations, my disappointments. And yet, no matter how much the world changes, I still feel like I'm expected to stay in my little box. Sure, I can now wear sequins or whatever, but if I go on a date and talk about how rough it is getting laid off, I'm still afraid (out of experience) of being called a weak loser. Women have been liberated from being domestic/sex objects and subservient, which I'm all for, but I'm still stuck with the expectation of being a "success object". We need to get away from Masculinity is good/evil. This is a false dichotomy. Masculinity is good and evil, as is femininity. Patriarchy, toxic masculinity, etc. is a simplification, it simplifies and conceals a reality that's much more nuanced and complicated then the ideologues on either side want to acknowledge.

The appeal of Rocky, for me at least, lies not in his unattainable achievements or physique, but instead in his determination, hard work and unswerving drive to climb from the bottom to the top of his profession. Overall, the story of Rocky isn't about being the champion per se, rather, it's about doing better. Also, he doesn't go it alone. He has a trainer, Mickey.

It's hard not to notice that most of the "healthy masculine" role models named are all very conventionally attractive people, just with different fashion choices. I think it takes a lot more than fashion to ensure someone has a "healthy" perspective on gender. I wish more time was spent on articulating actual examples and quotes from these people rather than showing pictures of them looking cute in their cardigans.

Masculinity is not ever defined in a fashion magazine.

The list of positive masculinity role models referenced seems to suggest the main attributes wanted are to be rich, famous and really, really good looking.

Is Rocky's place as a role model really about his physique? Not his story, how through all adversity he never gave up and fought to the bitter end to achieve the goal he had put in mind? Not really wanting to be how he looks like but be how resilient he is to the hardships of society. Not a role model for men, but people in general.

The fact that masculinity is based on looks talks to me : I don’t like when people think that a lumberjacks shirt, or a sailor sweatshirt (marinière) makes a man look good. I can’t help but see that what is attractive is the background of the clothes, for example a romanticized view of a little cabin in the wood with a lumberjack chopping wood with an axe (rarely a chainsaw) or a sailor throwing a fishing net from his cute wooden boat (but not a trawler). But the locals who do those hard works are rarely considered as role model. That’s the hypocrisy of styles and cardigans… I should mention there’s a video about working class aesthetic on this channel that does a better job than this post.

Regardless of the gender politics, Stallone wrote Rocky intending it to be a love story. Boxing itself is a metaphor for Rocky finding his worth / place in society as a struggling, beat up fighter (and finds it in his family: Adrian, Mickey, his son). As the films progress it just goes to show that whatever Rocky dealt with all that mattered to him is his family.

I am midway thru and i'm no closer to understanding what is '"over-rated", or who is doing the rating. I don't think there is much to learn from celebrity male actors, regardless of how well they conduct themselves in public, because to some degree they are representing a brand that is maintained by a cast of hundreds - producers, directors, agents, screenwriters, marketers, and many many meetings. Whatever Rocky came to symbolize, at base the character was a working class underdog with a dream who, despite losing the big fight, demonstrated better character than those around him and that it's not just about money and smarts (even tho of course it IS).. As regards the relationship between class, cultural capital and gender socialization, I still see that power belongs to the big swinging dicks of wall street and DC, where whatever cultural capital those white male ivy leaguers might have acquired gets spent figuring out how to skewer their opponent for all the marbles. If positive is the opposite of zero-sum capitalism and politics, it's rare behavior that cannot be rated highly enough.